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	<title>Comments on: What of the Electoral College?</title>
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	<link>http://fightthehypo.com/2008/11/04/what-of-the-electoral-college/</link>
	<description>a law student blog written by students at the catholic university of america, columbus school of law ::fighting the hypo, so you don&#039;t have to::</description>
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		<title>By: BigShow</title>
		<link>http://fightthehypo.com/2008/11/04/what-of-the-electoral-college/comment-page-1/#comment-609</link>
		<dc:creator>BigShow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:08:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fightthehypo.com/?p=358#comment-609</guid>
		<description>I like the electoral college, for all of the reasons Sherpa cited, if not simply for the fact that Dr. B doesn&#039;t like it. 

Then again, I also think we should go back to the original design and let the state legislatures choose Senators, too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the electoral college, for all of the reasons Sherpa cited, if not simply for the fact that Dr. B doesn&#8217;t like it. </p>
<p>Then again, I also think we should go back to the original design and let the state legislatures choose Senators, too.</p>
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		<title>By: Casebook Sherpa</title>
		<link>http://fightthehypo.com/2008/11/04/what-of-the-electoral-college/comment-page-1/#comment-602</link>
		<dc:creator>Casebook Sherpa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Nov 2008 15:04:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fightthehypo.com/?p=358#comment-602</guid>
		<description>Well, since it seems that no one else is interested in our little colloquy here, I&#039;ll a few more observations and move on...

First, it is interesting how the Electoral College interprets/magnifies/minimizes/distorts the popular vote in an election like yesterday&#039;s. You would think that Obama had won by more than ~7 million votes given the huge electoral college margin.

Second, on the idea of appealing beyond population centers it occurs to me that I should explicitly state that rural interests are different than urban, suburban and exurban interests. These interests have an influence - albeit indirect by virtue of nature of the EC - on elections because of the electoral college. I think there&#039;s a value in ensuring influence for these regions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, since it seems that no one else is interested in our little colloquy here, I&#8217;ll a few more observations and move on&#8230;</p>
<p>First, it is interesting how the Electoral College interprets/magnifies/minimizes/distorts the popular vote in an election like yesterday&#8217;s. You would think that Obama had won by more than ~7 million votes given the huge electoral college margin.</p>
<p>Second, on the idea of appealing beyond population centers it occurs to me that I should explicitly state that rural interests are different than urban, suburban and exurban interests. These interests have an influence &#8211; albeit indirect by virtue of nature of the EC &#8211; on elections because of the electoral college. I think there&#8217;s a value in ensuring influence for these regions.</p>
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		<title>By: Casebook Sherpa</title>
		<link>http://fightthehypo.com/2008/11/04/what-of-the-electoral-college/comment-page-1/#comment-601</link>
		<dc:creator>Casebook Sherpa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 19:15:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fightthehypo.com/?p=358#comment-601</guid>
		<description>Taking your points in inverse order...

Sure, voter fraud MAY be more diluted. It may also be more pervasive if enforcement is done on the federal level. Your point is well-taken; it simply cuts both ways. I believe that placing accountability closer to the people tends to work better - or at least has a better chance of working more effectively - than entrusting all to a federal agency.

One problem that I hope we can both concede is that limited resources and voting patterns will mean that any candidate - regardless of the mechanism for counting votes - will spend time primarily in areas where they can gain votes. So it could be the case that EC or not the candidates spend time in the same exact precincts that they currently frequent. My issue with eliminating the EC is that it will, as your argument all but explicitly states, most incentives to campaigning in rural states.

The EC is not perfect. But it is a way of ensuring that sparsely populated areas are not ignored. Yes it places a value, of sorts, on each voter that is roughly equivalent to the ratio of population to electoral votes. However by doing so it requires candidates to make appeals not just to the largest number of voters but to a broad cross section of the electorate. I&#039;ll certainly accept slightly less relative EC influence for bigger states to ensure that smaller states are not overwhelmed by large state influence.

Faithless electors are hardly the norm (though not uncommon). The point still remains that by participating in a smaller pool of voters you have greater influence over the outcome.

And Madison is hardly the champion of direct election of federal representatives given his rather forceful defense of the process for electing Senators in The Federalist Papers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Taking your points in inverse order&#8230;</p>
<p>Sure, voter fraud MAY be more diluted. It may also be more pervasive if enforcement is done on the federal level. Your point is well-taken; it simply cuts both ways. I believe that placing accountability closer to the people tends to work better &#8211; or at least has a better chance of working more effectively &#8211; than entrusting all to a federal agency.</p>
<p>One problem that I hope we can both concede is that limited resources and voting patterns will mean that any candidate &#8211; regardless of the mechanism for counting votes &#8211; will spend time primarily in areas where they can gain votes. So it could be the case that EC or not the candidates spend time in the same exact precincts that they currently frequent. My issue with eliminating the EC is that it will, as your argument all but explicitly states, most incentives to campaigning in rural states.</p>
<p>The EC is not perfect. But it is a way of ensuring that sparsely populated areas are not ignored. Yes it places a value, of sorts, on each voter that is roughly equivalent to the ratio of population to electoral votes. However by doing so it requires candidates to make appeals not just to the largest number of voters but to a broad cross section of the electorate. I&#8217;ll certainly accept slightly less relative EC influence for bigger states to ensure that smaller states are not overwhelmed by large state influence.</p>
<p>Faithless electors are hardly the norm (though not uncommon). The point still remains that by participating in a smaller pool of voters you have greater influence over the outcome.</p>
<p>And Madison is hardly the champion of direct election of federal representatives given his rather forceful defense of the process for electing Senators in The Federalist Papers.</p>
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		<title>By: Dr. Bombay</title>
		<link>http://fightthehypo.com/2008/11/04/what-of-the-electoral-college/comment-page-1/#comment-600</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. Bombay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 17:04:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fightthehypo.com/?p=358#comment-600</guid>
		<description>&quot;&lt;em&gt;The present rule of voting for President…is so great a departure from the Republican principle of numerical equality…and is so pregnant also with a mischievous tendency in practice, that an amendment of the Constitution on this point is justly called for by all its considerate and best friends&lt;/em&gt;.&quot;

    &lt;strong&gt;James Madison to George Hay.  1823.  Writings 9:147--55&lt;/strong&gt;

I’ll take this opportunity to offer a counterpoint to the Sherpa’s argument; The Electoral College was, is, and evermore shall be one of worst phenomena our Constitution has foisted upon our Republic. 

First, the argument that voting for a slate of Electors provides a greater influence over the process is rubbish, if for no other reason that the Electors may be faithless. My vote therefore is no guarantee that the candidate I selected will receive a vote in the electoral college. Rather, I am registering a belief in the notion that the criminal penalties in my state are such that they will force the elector will comport with his or her pledge. 

Second, what you see as a guarantee of smaller state involvement, I see as a tyranny of the minority. New York has 31 electoral votes representing 5.7% of the Electoral College. The state has roughly 19 million people by the last census, or 6.7% of the U.S. population. Montana has 3 votes in the Electoral College representing ½ or 1% of the Electoral College.  Their population is only 1/3 of 1% percent of the entire U.S. population. This means that the vote of someone from New York is only worth 85% of a single vote for President and a resident of Montana is worth 117% of a single vote?  Is it reasonable to decide that one part of the population’s is worth more than another? 

As to the presumed bias for urban areas in a popular vote model, I would argue that a direct appeal to the largest number of citizens is more appropriate than a continual series of appeals to a small number of voters in a fraction of precincts in a few swing states. Save for their involvement is determining Florida’s electoral votes, do the residents of the communities along I-4 in Florida merit more attention than the entire State of Maryland or Utah? 

Lastly, as the 2000 Election proved, the ability to perform recounts in a smaller area is no guarantee of an orderly or complete process.  I would argue that given the number of inside players that pervade almost all State politics, the system actually increases the chance of manipulation. By virtue of the numbers, the effect of voter fraud is necessarily diluted as a function of a inserting them into a larger pool.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;<em>The present rule of voting for President…is so great a departure from the Republican principle of numerical equality…and is so pregnant also with a mischievous tendency in practice, that an amendment of the Constitution on this point is justly called for by all its considerate and best friends</em>.&#8221;</p>
<p>    <strong>James Madison to George Hay.  1823.  Writings 9:147&#8211;55</strong></p>
<p>I’ll take this opportunity to offer a counterpoint to the Sherpa’s argument; The Electoral College was, is, and evermore shall be one of worst phenomena our Constitution has foisted upon our Republic. </p>
<p>First, the argument that voting for a slate of Electors provides a greater influence over the process is rubbish, if for no other reason that the Electors may be faithless. My vote therefore is no guarantee that the candidate I selected will receive a vote in the electoral college. Rather, I am registering a belief in the notion that the criminal penalties in my state are such that they will force the elector will comport with his or her pledge. </p>
<p>Second, what you see as a guarantee of smaller state involvement, I see as a tyranny of the minority. New York has 31 electoral votes representing 5.7% of the Electoral College. The state has roughly 19 million people by the last census, or 6.7% of the U.S. population. Montana has 3 votes in the Electoral College representing ½ or 1% of the Electoral College.  Their population is only 1/3 of 1% percent of the entire U.S. population. This means that the vote of someone from New York is only worth 85% of a single vote for President and a resident of Montana is worth 117% of a single vote?  Is it reasonable to decide that one part of the population’s is worth more than another? </p>
<p>As to the presumed bias for urban areas in a popular vote model, I would argue that a direct appeal to the largest number of citizens is more appropriate than a continual series of appeals to a small number of voters in a fraction of precincts in a few swing states. Save for their involvement is determining Florida’s electoral votes, do the residents of the communities along I-4 in Florida merit more attention than the entire State of Maryland or Utah? </p>
<p>Lastly, as the 2000 Election proved, the ability to perform recounts in a smaller area is no guarantee of an orderly or complete process.  I would argue that given the number of inside players that pervade almost all State politics, the system actually increases the chance of manipulation. By virtue of the numbers, the effect of voter fraud is necessarily diluted as a function of a inserting them into a larger pool.</p>
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