Comments on: Top 25 Best Values in Law School http://fightthehypo.com/2008/03/11/top-25-best-values-in-law-school/ a law student blog ::fighting the hypo, so you don't have to :: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 09:47:48 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2 By: Use Blind Tasting To (Help) Rank Law Schools at Fight The Hypo http://fightthehypo.com/2008/03/11/top-25-best-values-in-law-school/#comment-442 Use Blind Tasting To (Help) Rank Law Schools at Fight The Hypo Thu, 24 Jul 2008 19:56:00 +0000 http://fightthehypo.com/2008/03/11/top-25-best-values-in-law-school/#comment-442 [...] tannin residue in my brain, but it strikes me that adding a component like this (not to mention Dr. Bombay’s law school value calculation) could help to bring a more personal, less manipulable component to the [...] [...] tannin residue in my brain, but it strikes me that adding a component like this (not to mention Dr. Bombay’s law school value calculation) could help to bring a more personal, less manipulable component to the [...]

]]> By: John Q http://fightthehypo.com/2008/03/11/top-25-best-values-in-law-school/#comment-420 John Q Sat, 12 Jul 2008 04:13:03 +0000 http://fightthehypo.com/2008/03/11/top-25-best-values-in-law-school/#comment-420 I have one example with regard to the whatanalysis comment regarding average debt load. I think average debt load is a fairly (though not perfect) indicator of a school's financial aid resources. I go to University of Akron (#22 on your list) and can tell you that they give many entering students full tuition scholarships as an incentive to get them to go here. I don't know the exact figure, but many people have told me over 70% of 1Ls get some amount of scholarship. I only received scholarship offers from two other schools, and they weren't even close to full tuition. Most of my friends have full tuition scholarships, some even have $10,000 stipends on top of that. The ones that don't have full usually have half-tuition scholarships. In fact, I only have one friend who doesn't have a scholarship, and he was wait-listed, let in to the evening program, and then transferred into the day. I can also tell you that very few students here are rich by any definition of the word. Walk through the parking lot in the morning and you'll see every manner of crappy student car you could imagine. I sincerely doubt the students at SMU are richer than those at the T-14. It just makes sense that you'd find many more trust fund babies at a place like Harvard or Yale than lower-ranked schools. While top schools make admirable efforts to diversify their students' racial and socioeconomic backgrounds, the vast majority are still prep-school to Ivy-League to country club elites. Not that they aren't good students or anything. It's just plain logic that those who have better starts tend to have better finishes. I have one example with regard to the whatanalysis comment regarding average debt load. I think average debt load is a fairly (though not perfect) indicator of a school’s financial aid resources. I go to University of Akron (#22 on your list) and can tell you that they give many entering students full tuition scholarships as an incentive to get them to go here. I don’t know the exact figure, but many people have told me over 70% of 1Ls get some amount of scholarship. I only received scholarship offers from two other schools, and they weren’t even close to full tuition. Most of my friends have full tuition scholarships, some even have $10,000 stipends on top of that. The ones that don’t have full usually have half-tuition scholarships. In fact, I only have one friend who doesn’t have a scholarship, and he was wait-listed, let in to the evening program, and then transferred into the day. I can also tell you that very few students here are rich by any definition of the word. Walk through the parking lot in the morning and you’ll see every manner of crappy student car you could imagine. I sincerely doubt the students at SMU are richer than those at the T-14. It just makes sense that you’d find many more trust fund babies at a place like Harvard or Yale than lower-ranked schools. While top schools make admirable efforts to diversify their students’ racial and socioeconomic backgrounds, the vast majority are still prep-school to Ivy-League to country club elites. Not that they aren’t good students or anything. It’s just plain logic that those who have better starts tend to have better finishes.

]]> By: On Newsstands - US News Rankings at Fight The Hypo http://fightthehypo.com/2008/03/11/top-25-best-values-in-law-school/#comment-111 On Newsstands - US News Rankings at Fight The Hypo Mon, 31 Mar 2008 17:05:24 +0000 http://fightthehypo.com/2008/03/11/top-25-best-values-in-law-school/#comment-111 [...] you’re interested in methodology of rankings, we’re working on our own Value Ranking. We’re still working on the formula and tabulating results, so if you have thoughts, fire [...] [...] you’re interested in methodology of rankings, we’re working on our own Value Ranking. We’re still working on the formula and tabulating results, so if you have thoughts, fire [...]

]]> By: Dr. Bombay http://fightthehypo.com/2008/03/11/top-25-best-values-in-law-school/#comment-110 Dr. Bombay Mon, 31 Mar 2008 00:44:45 +0000 http://fightthehypo.com/2008/03/11/top-25-best-values-in-law-school/#comment-110 Whatanalysis, My response to your criticism is the following: 1. You're right that there is a coorelation between the cost of the education and the total amount of debt service. That's why a school like George Mason -- a state school with a close proximity to one of the best legal markets in the country (D.C.) -- has such a good debt/earnings ratio. 2. SMU isn't cheap however. According to their website, tuition for '07/'08 school year was $34,576. While it could be the case that all the trust fund babies in Dallas are going there. It could also be the case that school is well financed, and works to help students manage their debt load. 3. I have to imagine that if your theory were true, the debt load of students at places like Harvard would be a lot lower. It isn't however, even though it has a comperable cost, and substantial aid resources that almost make you blush. Whatanalysis,

My response to your criticism is the following:

1. You’re right that there is a coorelation between the cost of the education and the total amount of debt service. That’s why a school like George Mason — a state school with a close proximity to one of the best legal markets in the country (D.C.) — has such a good debt/earnings ratio.

2. SMU isn’t cheap however. According to their website, tuition for ‘07/’08 school year was $34,576. While it could be the case that all the trust fund babies in Dallas are going there. It could also be the case that school is well financed, and works to help students manage their debt load.

3. I have to imagine that if your theory were true, the debt load of students at places like Harvard would be a lot lower. It isn’t however, even though it has a comperable cost, and substantial aid resources that almost make you blush.

]]> By: whatanalysis http://fightthehypo.com/2008/03/11/top-25-best-values-in-law-school/#comment-109 whatanalysis Sun, 30 Mar 2008 23:34:38 +0000 http://fightthehypo.com/2008/03/11/top-25-best-values-in-law-school/#comment-109 this ranking is meaningless. the first column should be $spent not loan remaining. Perhaps a larger fraction of the SMU grads are funded by family, friends or fools.. that the other schools dont. And hence dont have big loans. this ranking is meaningless. the first column should be $spent not loan remaining. Perhaps a larger fraction of the SMU grads are funded by family, friends or fools.. that the other schools dont. And hence dont have big loans.

]]> By: US News Rankings Preview at Fight The Hypo http://fightthehypo.com/2008/03/11/top-25-best-values-in-law-school/#comment-108 US News Rankings Preview at Fight The Hypo Fri, 28 Mar 2008 01:45:46 +0000 http://fightthehypo.com/2008/03/11/top-25-best-values-in-law-school/#comment-108 [...] though we’re building a case against the US News Rankings here at Fight The Hypo (stay tuned), we were pretty excited to see this leaked [...] [...] though we’re building a case against the US News Rankings here at Fight The Hypo (stay tuned), we were pretty excited to see this leaked [...]

]]> By: Dr. Bombay http://fightthehypo.com/2008/03/11/top-25-best-values-in-law-school/#comment-95 Dr. Bombay Wed, 12 Mar 2008 19:15:02 +0000 http://fightthehypo.com/2008/03/11/top-25-best-values-in-law-school/#comment-95 When people are trying to determine the value of a law school eductaion, there is this perception that the T-14 are the schools that will produce value. What these number suggest is that the rankings are not an accurate barometer of value. An SMU grad gets more for every dollar of debt accrued than a Harvard grad. So exclusivley on financial grounds, SMU would seem to be a better value than any other school in the country, because that ratio is higher. When people are trying to determine the value of a law school eductaion, there is this perception that the T-14 are the schools that will produce value. What these number suggest is that the rankings are not an accurate barometer of value.

An SMU grad gets more for every dollar of debt accrued than a Harvard grad. So exclusivley on financial grounds, SMU would seem to be a better value than any other school in the country, because that ratio is higher.

]]> By: Casebook Sherpa http://fightthehypo.com/2008/03/11/top-25-best-values-in-law-school/#comment-94 Casebook Sherpa Tue, 11 Mar 2008 20:08:38 +0000 http://fightthehypo.com/2008/03/11/top-25-best-values-in-law-school/#comment-94 As we've discussed this, I've always thought of this as a measure of "instant value." It offers a picture of how much instant return you receive on your investment. To put it another way, it lets you see whether you are starting ahead of the financial curve or behind it and how far you are likely to stray either way by attending a certain school. For instance, an SMU grad is receiving an instant 4:1 return on her investment. This means she has more disposable income thatn the typical law school grad (over and above loan payments) to save, spend, pay down debt, invest, or otherwise squander. Is this a helpful and accurate way of looking at it? As we’ve discussed this, I’ve always thought of this as a measure of “instant value.” It offers a picture of how much instant return you receive on your investment.

To put it another way, it lets you see whether you are starting ahead of the financial curve or behind it and how far you are likely to stray either way by attending a certain school.

For instance, an SMU grad is receiving an instant 4:1 return on her investment. This means she has more disposable income thatn the typical law school grad (over and above loan payments) to save, spend, pay down debt, invest, or otherwise squander.

Is this a helpful and accurate way of looking at it?

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